Alone? We're already Alone.

In terms of trade, Germany and Britain are meant to be. In sickness and in health, even if they can't stand the decisions their soul mate make. Well, money mates. Neither one can intentionally isolate from the other because it would lead to the financial collapse; or at least decline, of both superpowers. Therefore, the supreme leaders of Europe, i.e. The Germans, can't even consider the isolation of Britain if we were to depart from the EU. But that is the mere scrape of the UK/EU issue.

The European Commission made it perfectly clear to UKIP Deputy Leader, Paul Nuttall MEP, if we were to carry on bombarding the establishment with our (wonderful) nonsense, they will... Relegate us to the status of Switzerland. Dam that's terrifying! Wait a minute, isn't Switzerland that prosperous global nation? Being a member of the European Free Trade Association, they are part of the European Union Internal Market through the Agreement on a European Economic Area (EEA), which took effect in 1994. To every threat an EU leader makes; every attempt to scare monger our weak, apprehensive and cryptic Prime Minister, there's a cascade of good news for the vision of an Independent Britain.

What is better than Briton's being legally able to freely trade with our true allies, the Commonwealth? Whist Cameron gets some sort of thrill out of getting attacked left, right and center (and that can be taken politically and literally), Ukip can see developed market economies emerged or emerging from Australia,  New Zealand, Jamaica, Canada, South Africa, India and many more. In the case of India, we should not be wasting billions on aid just to feed their endless plight. We should not bow to an Indian government which spends “tens of billions” on defense including the £13 billion deal we may have lost to the French, which makes it unacceptable to give further aid. Let's stimulate jobs and growth in India's poorest areas through interjecting trade, technical expertise and experience. In addition, Australia is crucial because it hosts a growing economy; a stable political and business environment; a skilled, well educated and multi-lingual workforce; a strategic time-zone and a competitive cost base. I can see a British-Irish union being the power house to such a bountiful friendship as we might never be one but we will, by no doubt, have a far more fruitful relationship than the present with a German lady who flirts with a Frenchmen's anti-British mantas.

I've always had a vision of a Britannia which will not be ordered and regulated by Europe, nevertheless free trade and the peace process in Europe is essential. However, the sort of EU project amplified by the Lisbon Treaty provides me a dire image of what awaits national sovereignty and identity across Europe, with Barroso's vision of a "Federal Europe" making the thought more tangible than ever.  I see it as our responsibility to lead Europe out of this disastrous and monolithic EU, and into the EFTA because - I know - that cherished 1940's spirit still lives inside us somewhere.

David Cameron: Compulsive Liar & Traitorous Europhile

David Camoron is going to the European Empire today to fight for a limit on the increase in the EU budget.  A few days ago he wanted a freeze in the budget and a few days before that he wanted a reduction in the budget.  By the end of the day he'll have increased our contribution and agreed to abolish the rebate.

It is impossible for the UK government to reduce the EU budget.  Even if Camoron somehow managed to get a majority of the heads of member states to agree to limit the obscene 6.2% increase in the EU budget, the EU Parliament can overrule them and as we all know, 90% of the EU Parliament is made up of europhile traitors whose only objective in life is lining their own pockets and creating a European Empire.

Cast Iron Dave gave a cast iron promise that we would have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty/EU constitution.  He lied.

He said his government wouldn't transfer any more powers to the EU and then transferred more criminal justice powers to the EU, agreed to illegal EU scrutiny of the UK budget before it goes to Parliament and agreed to the creation of an EU financial services regulator.  He lied.

He said he would fight for a reduction in the EU budget.  He lied.

He said he would fight for a freeze in the EU budget.  He lied.

He says he's going to fight for a limit on the EU budget increase.  He's lying!

France and Germany want to change the Lisbon Treaty/EU constitution to give the EU more control over eurozone economies.  Camoron said any new treaty or treaty change would be subject to a referendum.  Now he says we don't need a referendum on this change to the Lisbon Treaty because we're not in the euro.  Another lie.


David Camoron is a compulsive liar and a treasonous europhile.  He has surrounded himself with europhile Tories and Lib Dems in his ConDem coalition cabinet.  During the election campaign we said "Vote Conservative, get Brussels".  The electorate voted Conservative and they're getting Brussels.

EU flexes Lisbon muscle in Greece

The European Empire has used its new powers to undermine national sovereignty under the Lisbon Treaty for the first time by removing Greece's right to vote at a meeting of finance ministers next month as punishment for their financial problems.

Unless Greece complies with instructions from other imperial finance ministers over their austerity budget, the European Empire will take over running the Greek economy.

Meanwhile, it looks like some Germans shops are refusing to accept high denomination Euro notes printed in Portugal, Ireland, Italy or Greece.

Trust: earned, not learned

Cameron's probably undergoing an excruciating learning process - one where trust is earned, not learned.

Benedict Brogan posts a cogent analysis on why we must demand a referendum on the EU.

One would hope that politicians have learned that semantic games backfire.

Why can they not simply be straight with us?

The answer is obvious. They have too much to hide. They serve more than one master and when the inevitable conflict of interest arises, they have no choice but to fudge or lie.

They become emboldened with each lie/fudge that pays off, but eventually, the electorate cottons on and an almighty boil builds.

Sensible, integrity-steeped politicians will recognise the building boil and will seek to lance it. These wonderful souls (Dan Hannan) are, of course, ignored.

Until they resign and thence, lance the boil.

Then, the very subjects which the politicos wished to avoid discussing, become the very subjects which the electorate most want discussed.

Who wins?

Knowing that they have lost the argument on the big issues that concern the electorate, they try to buy us off with concessions on minor issues.  Avoid 'difficult' issues at all costs.

And so, debate is denied, lying becomes entrenched.

My mother warned that the danger of a lie is that one had to be able to recall ones previous lies to be credible. The real danger of lying is that the web of lies that invariably ensues, entraps us and forces us to face that which we sought to avoid - magnified. 

Integrity is in vogue, but our politicos appear to be the only people in the nation who don't know it.

Apart from UKIP, that is.

Cross-posted

N Ireland Assembly votes 47-19 to hold Lisbon Referendum

The eGov monitor reports that the Northern Ireland Assembly voted for a motion on Tuesday by 47-19 in favour of the UK holding a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, and calling on "those parties aspiring to form the incoming Government of the United Kingdom to give an unequivocal commitment to hold, within a twelve month period from assuming office in 2010, a binding referendum on the Lisbon Treaty that is unconditional and unrelated to how other member states choose to vote, and the result of which will not be held in abeyance pending a further referendum on the subject."

Follow the Northern Ireland Assembly debate proceedings here.

Cross-posted

La la la la la, we're not listening

Are you a conservative? Are you a libertarian? Do you believe in small government? Are you a eurosceptic? Do you intend to vote Conservative at the next general election?

If you answered yes to all of the above then I have one more question - why?

The Conservative Party isn't a party for conservatives any more, it's a New Labour clone - Blue Labour. The Conservative Party isn't a party with libertarian ideals any more, it's a party of authoritarians. The Conservative Party isn't a party of small government any more, it want's more and more control over our lives. And the Conservative Party certainly isn't a eurosceptic party any more, David Camoron is a eurofederalist committed to keeping the UK i the European Empire and to ever closer union.

UKIP is what the Conservative Party would be if it was run by conservatives - a right of centre, eurosceptic party committed to small government, low tax, libertarian ideals and national sovereignty.

If you believe in those ideals then a vote for the Conservatives is a wasted vote - a Tory government won't give you any of that. If you're thinking of voting Tory just to get rid of Liebour then that's a wasted vote - you're exchanging one party that doesn't represent you for another party that doesn't represent you.

By rights, David Camoron's dithering and pathetic "we won't let matters rest" policy on the Lisbon Treaty should be tearing the Conservatives apart from the inside. Most members of the Conservative Party are vehemently opposed to handing over the tattered remains of our national sovereignty to the European Empire but they are more interested in getting their party into power in the vain hope that once they're in power they will be able to change Camoron's direction. They're kidding themselves.

Camoron will see a victory at the ballot box as an endorsement of his agenda and the willingness of Tory members to support him throughout the election campaign as an acceptance of the new direction he is taking the party in.

Tories are overjoyed at today's news that Angela Merkel's party has won enough of the vote in the German general election to dump its alliance with the socialists. Forget about the fact that she's a fascist eurofederalist former communist - her party is right wing so it's something to be celebrated. Ignore the fact that she's been instrumental in promoting the EU not-a-constitution and leads the drive for a European Federation regardless of what the people of Europe want - she leads a nominally conservative party so it's a good thing.

Conservative Party members and voters need to look at the bigger picture. A Tory government is going to bring us more of the same - more tax, bigger government, less freedom and a Federal Europe. Instead of voting for the Tories despite the fundamental divergence from what the membership believes in, vote for UKIP because it represents every right thinking man and woman in this country.

Don't be afraid that voting UKIP will weaken the Tory vote and lead to an apocolyptic fourth term for Liebour - get out there and convince the rest of the disaffected Tory membership to vote UKIP as well. There is only one way to stop the forces of eurofederalism and that's to vote UKIP. Put your cross next to any other party and you're not only wasting your vote, you're condemning your country to a certain future as a collection of regions in a European Federation.

Is that what you want? Because it's certainly not what I want. Now pull your socks up, take your fingers out of your ears and give Camoron, Clarke and all the other eurofederalists two fingers.

Dan Hannan's message to Ireland on the Lisbon Treaty

Hat tip: Lord Elvis of Paisley

Cross-posted

Sovereign Independent Newspaper - print and distribute!

The Sovereign Independent Newspaper is now available online.

Any of you visiting Ireland over the next few weeks might want to print it and pass it around!

Cross-posted

Update: the download link might be slow, in which case, download a copy here.

Lisbon Treaty was deliberately made unreadable

Just in case anyone has forgotten, or has simply not grasped how mendacious europhiles are and how they have conspired to stop the people of Europe voting in a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, listen to ex-Italian PM say so himself.

They deliberately made the Lisbon Treaty unreadable. I hope the Irish take note.

OpenEurope posted this on its blog in 2007:

The pro-euro camp are all busy congratulating themselves about having fooled the public by changing the name of the constitution.

At a meeting of the Centre for European Reform yesterday EU officials discussed their strategy for adopting the EU Constitution without a referendum.

Former Italian PM Giuliano Amato said, “They decided that the document should be unreadable. If it is unreadable, it is not constitutional, that was the sort of perception. Where they got this perception from is a mystery to me. In order to make our citizens happy, to produce a document that they will never understand! But, there is some truth [in it]. Because if this is the kind of document that the IGC will produce, any Prime Minister – imagine the UK Prime Minister - can go to the Commons and say ‘look, you see, it’s absolutely unreadable, it’s the typical Brussels treaty, nothing new, no need for a referendum.’ Should you succeed in understanding it at first sight there might be some reason for a referendum, because it would mean that there is something new.”

You can listen to them all chortling about how terribly clever they are on this clip. There is a quite lot of this kind of gloating going on in the pro-euro camp at the moment. But unfortunately for them, calls for a referendum are not going to go away.

Breathtakingly arrogant and anti-democratic.

Also posted on FaustiesBlog

Czechs to delay Lisbon Treaty via Constitutional Court

Václav Klaus and 17 Czech senators plant to refer the Lisbon Treaty to the Czech Constitutional Court at the beginning of August, which would delay the signing of the treaty into Czech law until the court has given its verdict. If the court finds the Lisbon Treaty to be unconstitutional, its fate could be the bin - where it belongs.

The Telegraph reports:

That could thwart the ambitions of Sweden, current holder of the EU's rotating presidency, to see the Treaty's provisions pushed through before the end of the year if Ireland votes to approve the treaty in its Oct 2 referendum.

Fredrik Reinfeldt, the Swedish prime minister, said recently he wanted to see the EU "move over to the Lisbon Treaty, if possible, late in our presidency".

[...]

Germany and Poland still have to ratify the treaty. While they are widely expected to do so, any further delay could hold up the appointment of the new European Commission, which is due to take office on Nov 1.

Andrew Duff, the UK Liberal MEP, accused Mr Klaus of procrastinating.
Meanwhile, one of the key figures in the pro-treaty campaign in Ireland has admitted that the "Yes" camp faces a "tough campaign" over the next two months.

The latest opinion polls suggest a "Yes" vote would be possible, but Pat Cox, campaign director of Ireland for Europe, an independent civil society group promoting ratification, said, "Ireland is a very different place today to what it was a year ago. The financial crisis has rocked our confidence. We are reeling from a series of body blows over the last 12 months. There is no room for complacency.

"There are those on the No side who will seek to exploit our present uncertainty to encourage the Irish people to vote against our own interests and reject the Treaty.
"We do not plan to let them succeed," Mr Cox, a former Irish MEP and president of the European Parliament, added.

What Mr Cox is not telling us is that the EU spent €2.4bn spent on promoting the EU in 2008. With the uphill struggle that the EU now faces as it desperately tries to get this dreadful treaty ratified, I'm willing to bet that 2009's EU propaganda budget will be double that sum.

And we're all paying for it.

Cross-posted

EU con: Ireland to be bailed out by Germany

The Germans were not keen on relinquishing their highly regarded Deutsche Mark for the Euro in the '90s, for fear that should any member states be reckless with their economies, Germany's economy would be forced to bail them out. So the Maastricht Treaty was designed to reassure German taxpayers that bailouts between member states would be illegal and that each member state had to be fully responsible for their own fiscal policies - including debts they incurred.

At the time, the German economy was strong, Ireland's economy beginning to boom, EU states generally growing and nobody seemed to foresee the possibility of future economic busts - despite the huge disparity between the social and economic fabric of the member states.

Ireland's current spending shortfall this year is €26bn while its spending requirement is €60bn, which means that it must borrow approximately €400m per week to keep the public sector going. Ireland's debt servicing costs are already the most expensive in Europe because the markets regard it as risky. Ireland is in a bit of a hole.

In October, it faces its second referendum on the same Lisbon Treaty with bogus guarantees and the EU and Brian Lenihan are trying to convince them that should their economy crash, their only hope would be bailouts from the EU.

Firstly, Ireland can slash its public sector and save itself a ton of money - so giving the markets confidence in its handling of the economy. That would have the effect of easing the cost of its credit and reducing the likelihood of its economy crashing.

Secondly, 70% of Germans are against bailing out the Irish and indeed, under EU law, it would be illegal for them to do so.

So, the Irish are being conned into believing:

• that the 'guarantees' they were promised will be delivered (they won't);
• that their only hope out of their financial crisis is to keep borrowing (it isn't);
• that the EU will bail them out should their economy fail (it can't and it won't).

And we all have to pay for the privilege of delivering this fiction to them, to persuade them to sign up to a treaty that none of the people of the member states wants!

Merkel, who faces an election this year, is latching onto a line from Article 100 of the Maastricht Treaty which permits a bailout for a member state in the case of "natural disasters" or "exceptional occurrences beyond its control." She says this allows some "interpretive room for manoeuvre." Update: Der Spiegel gives the low-down on Germany's economy.

The Irish aren't stupid but people do crazy things when scared - which is precisely what the EU intended. We have a duty to tear the veil from their eyes, in any way we can.

I suggest we get busy blogging - and flooding their newspapers with comments.

Cross-posted.

Graham Watson says Ireland may have to leave EU if it votes No again

British MEP and leader of the Liberal group in the European Parliament Graham Watson has warned that Ireland may have to leave the EU if it votes No for a second time in a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. The Irish Times quotes him saying, “It is very difficult to see any country being able to stay in if they have had two Nos from the people”. He also warned that, “It would be very difficult to get large companies to invest in a country that looked as if it might be leaving the EU. I think it would have a social impact as well and, of course, it would call into question the future of the EU agency that is based in Ireland”.

He goes on to say that the European Liberal Democrats (ELDR) would contribute money to the second Lisbon referendum campaign if Irish PM Brian Cowen’s party Fianna Fail asked for financial help. Fianna Fail last week announced it would join the ELDR before European elections in June.

Meanwhile, On BBC Online, as part of a series of viewpoints on EU issues, Open Europe’s Lorraine Mullally argues that the EU Lisbon Treaty “is bad news for Europe”. She notes that, “It is a myth that the EU Lisbon Treaty will strengthen democracy in Europe”, quoting the President of the German Constitutional Court, who has said the Treaty's provisions for national parliaments are “ineffective” and “impractical”, and the cross-party House of Commons EU Scrutiny Committee, which said: “We doubt the significance of the 'greater opportunities' for national parliaments to be involved in any meaningful manner in the workings of the EU”. She also notes that judges at the German Constitutional Court have recently pointed out that the Treaty involves a clear extension of the EU's competences, with one asking “whether it would not be more honest to just proclaim a European federal state”.

How much more incentive do the Irish have to vote no again?

Swiss referendum could make or break relations with Brussels

SWITZERLAND VOTES today in a closely fought referendum on whether its current bilateral relations with the European Union have a future. What began life as a vote on extending free movement of labour agreements to the newest EU member states, Bulgaria and Romania, has been linked by parliament into an all-or-nothing vote on relations with the entire bloc.

Final polls show a slim majority in favour of the two motions, although the final result has gone down to the wire in the face of growing economic uncertainty and strong populist opposition. As preveously reported here Switzerlands economy benefits from being outside of EU

Unlike the aftermath of Ireland’s No to the Lisbon Treaty, EU officials say a Swiss No today would automatically terminate half a dozen other linked bilateral treaties agreed between Brussels and Berne in the last decade, covering everything from lowering trade barriers to managing alpine traffic.

Traditionally opposed to full EU membership, Swiss voters agreed in 2000 to a collection of bilateral agreements with Brussels. A seven-year deal allowing EU and Swiss citizens mutual residency and working rights was up for renewal by referendum this year. After a lengthy and heated debate, parliament took the controversial decision to link that vote to another pending vote, on whether to extend current bilateral arrangements with the EU to Bulgaria and Romania. Pro EU politications fearing of a back lash have called the move an abuse of Switzerland’s famous system of direct democracy, where citizens vote in regular referenda to decide public policy. All main political parties bar one have campaigned for a Yes vote. But convincing voters to open their country’s borders to two of Europe’s poorest countries hasn’t been easy, particularly in these uncertain economic times.

The main opponent of the referendum, the Swiss People’s Party (SVP), says that letting Romanians and Bulgarians into Switzerland will drive down wages and increase unemployment among Swiss workers. The party, led by industrialist Christoph Blocher, is notorious across Europe for previous referenda poster campaigns. This time around, posters show black ravens tearing strips from the flag this will no doubt have a effect on voters like previous posters have.

The effectiveness of the party’s poster campaigns is disputed: they have not yet swung a referendum in the SVP’s favour, but political analysts say it boosts the partys support. Leading EU officials have made is plain clear that snubbing its two newest member states is not the best basis for the start of a new relationship. If the referendum passes, officials on both sides are expected to upgrade current ad-hoc relations to a more formalised framework that will grow with new legislation and regulations.

The proposed new framework could cover everything from agricultural free trade to the conditions under which Swiss troops would automatically participate in EU-led peacekeeping missions. Brussels has made it clear the Swiss can not pick and choose EU policies - rejecting free movement could threaten those crucial free trade ties.Switzerland may not be in the EU, but it needs a good relationship with Brussels as one in every two Swiss francs is earned through trade with the EU, and one in every three Swiss jobs depends on that trade.

This once again shows the EU is willing to bully people in voting into the way they want threatening them with consequences if they vote NO, and if they Swiss do vote NO whats the bet of them having to vote again ? Is this really an organization the people of Switzerland want to join....

Who are UKIP?

Who are UKIP? Nigel dispels the myths about UKIP and speaks about the party as one with a Global and Democratic Vision for the European Continent. He also points the huge problems with the whole structure of EU institutions

Hidden Agenda?

The latest 'utterings' from The Boy (I won't discuss the European Union) Dave is probably the biggest shock of the year (so far) in that he has actually said something on the subject! Regrettably however, if you dissect what was said, it shows a form of contempt for the electorate.

Firstly, in the Financial Times, he has vowed to 'wreck the Lisbon Treaty', were there to be a general election in the Spring of this year. The FT continues: "Mr Cameron told the Financial Times that in such circumstances "we could have a referendum in October" on the treaty, in which he would lead the campaign for a No vote". The FT hits the nail on the head by stating that "The 'moderately eurosceptic' Tory leader expects to win that vote". Initial question Mr. Cameron - who gave you the right to 'lead the campaign for a No vote'?

In another article, this time in the Daily Mail, David Cameron states he would be prepared to cut the number of MPs by 60 as he feels the work done by the House of Commons could be done with fewer MPs and also to ensure that constituencies were of similar size in the number of electors.

A few points arise from both statements, which show that not only the Labour Party are prone to using 'spin' to achieve a favourable rating with the public. If one can believe Gordon Brown - difficult I know, given his history - he has stated that an election in the Spring is the 'farthest thought in my mind', consequently whilst David Cameron has stated what he would do, he knows it is fairly certain that is one promise on which he won't have to deliver. So why say it? Could it possibly be just to raise expectations in the mind of the public and in the hope it may help his party's vote at the coming European elections in June this year? (Sorry, me being cynical again!).

His second 'pronouncement', that he would cut the number of MPs also has a thread of 'not the whole reason why' behind it. Yes, it is a fact that with over 75% of our laws now emanating from Brussels the role of our Parliament is no more than that of an 'administrative centre' for our real government. Based on that Mr Cameron, why not cut 75% of them - in fact why not go even better and cut the lot as we are, more than likely, going to be governed by Regional Quangos anyway - who needs a middle man?

The other question that arises is how will these larger constituencies be formed. With the present government creating MAAs which conform to the Level 2 areas of the European Union's NUTS map of this country, what is the betting that any new constituencies will probably follow this principle.

Until David Cameron and his like from all the main three political parties accept one basic principle, which they will not do as it interferes with their continuing love of the EU project, they are being disrespectful and show nothing but contempt for the electorate of this country.

That basic principle is that we have the right to decide our own laws, our own way of life and therefore our own future and that of our children. We live in a democracy, supposedly, and if that basic right is taken away from us it leaves us in a new form of government - dictatorship with a democratic facade.

HT: Witterings from Witney

For anyone whos interested Dave's policy on Europe can be found here

Abit of New Years Fun

If at first you don't succeed ...

From the BBC News website:

Irish ready to hold new EU vote

The Irish Republic is willing to hold a second referendum on the EU's reform treaty if given certain guarantees by the EU, a spokesman has told the BBC.

Those legally binding guarantees are to be discussed by EU leaders at a summit getting under way in Brussels.

The Lisbon Treaty has been on ice since being rejected by Irish voters in June.

The summit is also due to take crucial decisions on EU measures to tackle climate change, and to consider an EU-wide economic stimulus plan.

The mechanism for a second referendum is included in draft conclusions which are being presented by the current holders of the EU presidency, France, and which have been seen by the BBC.

According to the draft, the Irish government says "it is committed to seeking ratification" of the Lisbon Treaty by end of October next year.

An Irish government spokesman told the BBC that it was "seeking legally binding instruments to address the concerns of the Irish people", and that once it got those assurances, it would present "a roadmap for ratification", that would include another referendum.

The EU is set to offer guarantees that the treaty will not affect three main areas of concern to Irish "No" voters - abortion, Irish neutrality and taxation, says the BBC's Europe editor Mark Mardell.

Ireland is also likely to be able to keep its EU commissioner.

The treaty is aimed at streamlining decision-making in the enlarged 27-nation EU.

It cannot take effect unless all 27 states ratify it. But Irish voters rejected it in a referendum and objections have held up its ratification in the Czech Republic and Poland.

Critics see the treaty as further evidence of a federalist, pro-integration agenda at work in the EU.

Even some of its architects say it is just a modified version of the EU constitution, rejected by French and Dutch voters in 2005.

Credibility at stake

EU leaders will pore over and work on the summit conclusions before they are published on Friday.

They also face a major test of their willingness to tackle climate change, with a key agreement on cutting the EU's carbon pollution at stake.

Amid the economic downturn, Germany, Italy and Poland, among others, are fighting any deal that could cost jobs.

The "20-20-20" package, which also requires approval by the European Parliament to become law, commits the EU to cutting carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions by 20% by 2020, compared to 1990 levels, and to raising renewable sources to 20% of total energy use.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy is pushing hard to clinch a deal before he hands over the rotating presidency of the EU to the Czech Republic at the end of the year.

"It is a question of credibility," said European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso on Tuesday.

"It would be a real mistake for Europe to give the signal that we are watering down our position, after all these years leading the efforts for a global solution."

He described the summit as "perhaps the most crucial European Council in recent years... and the most important in which I have participated as Commission President".

Employment worries

Germany and Italy have expressed concern that their industries could be put at an international disadvantage if the CO2 targets are too ambitious.

"If I see that Italian interests will be hurt in an excessive way, I will use our veto rights," said Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi on Wednesday.

"There will be no climate decisions that will endanger German jobs or investments. I will take care of that," said German Chancellor Angela Merkel.

Also up for discussion is the EU's $260bn (£175bn) economic stimulus plan.

With recession looming, there will be broad agreement on the EU-wide package to boost the economy, although Germany opposes calls from Britain and France to cut taxes, says the BBC's Oana Lungescu in Brussels.

So, yet again the EU refuses to take no for an answer. The French and Dutch said no to the EU Constitution so they changed the name to the Lisbon Treaty and changed it so that it delivered its payload by amending existing treaties instead of replacing them with a new one. The Irish said no so they will be asked again. And again and again until they come up with the right answer.

There's only one way they'll take no for an answer and that's at the business end of a pitchfork.

UKIP - your anti-EU voice and choice.